Home of Stuck

Screw logic.

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persona-q asked: Oh! If Mind and Hope have a great deal to do with Perception, does that mean that Heart and Rage have a connection to Judgement?

Judgement in the sort of regimental, judicial sense that the Myers-Briggs classification system uses? Definitely.

Heart has a deep connection with the Objective Truth in terms of both souls and ideals (which, upon closer inspection, were effectively the same thing to Plato anyway), and while Rage players have a very chaos-ridden view of the world around them they hold similar convictions about the futility of human choice.

Basically, there are rules written into you that you must follow. I guess they differ a little in that Heart-type rules can be resisted (at the cost of feeling awful about yourself), while you literally cannot help but follow Rage-type rules because they’re what everything about you is built out of.

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chimericodium asked: i'm a little stumped on the character arc of rogues. but since they're the inverse of mages, would you say it's something along the lines of learning to take care of oneself first to better help others/not try to please everyone?

Well: Mages learn this deeply spiritual lesson about how it’s harmful or impossible to have your cake and eat it too. Taking into account the connotations of dishonesty and avoidance that the word ‘steal’ holds, it seems to me that Rogues need to grow out of this borderline asceticism and just go out there and take stuff, whether or not they’ll be able to keep it.

A Rogue’s arc, I think, is mainly about

a) realizing that other people can be enormously greedy/egotistical/deceptive/a whole host of other historically ‘villainous’ traits, and

b) learning that these things don’t always have to lead to bad results.

I get the sense that both of your suggestions tie into this layout in a big way, especially where the notion that “people can be huge flaming jerks sometimes” comes in. Being a Rogue is all about tricking “bad” things into becoming “good” ones, even if it’s only to a limited extent.

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http://persona-q.tumblr.com/post/81648169513/kanjisassrenovationservice-speaking-of-things

kanjisassrenovationservice:

speaking of things that annoy me and theorizing

why does like nobody talk about the fact that brain ghost dirk exists when they are talking about page abilities

like okay for whatever reason knight/seer is still considered a viable pairing in the classpect…

Brain Ghost Dirk always struck me as a way to clue us into the mechanisms behind Hope— his little spiel about Jake’s “thought patterns” and “projections” seems to dip into the solipsistic mindset that I think all Hope players live by, and was part of what sold the Hope/reason association to me in the first place.

That said, if we take BGD’s actions towards Jake (chiefly feeding him a well-meaning but kind of condescending stream of information) and compare them to the dynamic between the three Pages and the characters around them, we get a repeated pattern of people giving tough love to Pages. (Or, well, attempts at tough love. [Vriska, we’re looking at you >:|]) Oh, plus sometimes they skip out on the “love” part entirely: check out John’s attitude towards Tavros when they meet face-to-face for the first time or Crockercorp Jane’s, uh, “plans” for Jake when he was still her captive.

Most -Knight/+Seer theorists tend to pair -Mage/+Page, but I’m not sure how well that connects with the behaviour outlined above. If -Mage/+Page were the case, I’d expect Mages to do to everyone what everyone does to Pages; they’d take a sort of drill-sergeant, “I’m going to kick your ass for your own good” attitude, keeping any fears or problems they may have well-hidden. Instead, we have Sollux’s half-hearted attempt to stop Karkat from being a raging dumbass, and his later decision “you know what I give up on trying to explain any of this shit”.

-Maid/+Page is interesting when considered from this perspective, but besides Jane’s little “stupid stupid stupid” moment there’s not a lot of self-directed asskicking going on with Maids. Meanwhile, the arcs of both Dave and Karkat feature plenty of concerted self-deprecation, and Knights in general match at least as many of the other indicators as Maids do. If we think of self-[verb]ing as a sign that a given class is the active [verb]er class*, then it’s an open-and-shut case.

* Princes, in addition to destroying shit outside of them, tend to act incredibly self-destructively: Dirk committed sendificator-assisted suicide, and Kurloz chewed his own tongue out. On the Thief front, we have Meenah stealing her own life to cheat the Scratch and Vriska constantly robbing herself of any absolution or exoneration in the eyes of her friends.

Filed under homestuck hope aspect reblogging kanjisassrenovationservice that url is truly a joy to type out page class passive classes active and passive classes? active classes Homestuck speculation -knight/+seer -mage/+page -knight/+page -mage/+heir comparing pairings ... compairing?

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http://hiromalo.tumblr.com/post/78766033064/crisesofsanity-one-thing-that-i-never-got-about

hiromalo:

But if I’m getting this correctly, your definition of Hope encompasses both Faith and Reason as means of explaining the world around you.

Basically, yes. Most people find it incredibly difficult to believe in something unless they have a reason that they think is logical: the disconnect between (for example) atheists and Christians is how much sense the Bible makes to them.

In contrast, animals rely almost exclusively on instincts; they don’t seek to explain or question or find reasons for the rules. They just follow them, or else they’ll die a painful death.

Rage (instead of my assumed “negative emotion”) is emotion and impulse in as much as it doesn’t try to explain. Or rather that Hope indicates conviction while Rage in a roundabout way includes all doubt? Ah, I’m still unsure if I’m on the same page as you…

In my view, the conviction that Rage players experience is basically the same as the animal instinct thing I mentioned above. Where Hope players study the outside world and invent their own “religion”, Rage players search within themselves and discover the “religion” hinted at by their impulses and emotions.

I think both paths have certain obstacles that can mislead players who aren’t well-versed in Doubt. Hope players, like everyone else on Earth, have imperfect senses, leading to flaws in the explanations that they base on these senses; and Rage players are prevented from reaching the truth within every part of reality by the illusion that is their ego (used in the Freudian sense). Hope players doubt their body, Rage players doubt their mind.

But I still think Mind bleeds heavily into the field of choice; Terezi’s entire ordeal with Vriska displayed her ability to see the diverging results of her decision on whether to kill. Or Dave’s decision to call Heads or Tails. The coin-flip is always arbitrary, and all she ever really cares about is the associated choice.

I don’t disagree! If we believe (for whatever reason) that the objective Truth is unknowable, or perhaps nonexistent, then the truth that matters is that which we choose to use. Instead of judging people’s actions based on how close they are to the Truth in their souls, we have to examine their decisions and all their reasoning, and decide whether or not they’re justified based on 

a) What they wanted to accomplish

and to a lesser extent

b) What they knew about the situation at the time
c) What they did to expand this knowledge

Heart, as an aspect, leaves very little room, or necessity, for personal choice. Any given situation can be dealt with in (effectively) two ways: the one that matches your soul, and the one that doesn’t. You can “be yourself”, or you can… not. In this respect, morality for Heart players is relatively simple, if inflexible, although there is the question of discovering your true self in the first place.

So maybe the difference is that while Heart and Rage both (in some ways) can include impulse as a feeling or an instinct, Hope shares Heart’s association with truth while both Mind and Rage are false?

I wouldn’t say that Mind and Rage are “false”— rather, they view truth as something that is made or enforced rather than simply the Unchanging Objective Truth. Meanwhile, Heart and Rage see morality as a set of rules that are dictated to us (the concept that underlies following your impulses/instincts, or your “heart”), where Mind and Hope believe very firmly that we make the rules.

(Source: crisesofsanity)

Filed under rage aspect hope aspect mind aspect heart aspect hiromalo kinda late: whoops discussion aspect talk homestuck Homestuck speculation

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iceworks asked: Well, I didn't mean that she wouldn't use them for an actual revival. She could do that before she died, couldn't she? But if she was alive at the end then either something about her powers wouldn't work or no one would stay dead. Unless I'm forgetting something?

bladekindeyewear:

Who exactly are you suggesting would be dead at the end, corpse present, who shouldn’t be revived?

If the aftermath of Horrorstuck made anything clear, it’s that fewer individuals than you might think are set to permanently die. (Besides the least relevant trolls.) Dave is one of the few people I have nigh-absolutely confirmed as set to die, and if he’s wiped out by a scratch, there’d be no corpse to resurrect.

Iceworks is forgetting that Jane’s powers can only be used once per person. So if Karkat dies a second time, Jane can’t resurrect him.

Filed under homestuck jane crocker maid of life

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persona-q asked: Okay, I think I get it. Before I leave you alone to write the post (sorry), I do want to point out the fact that it looks like both Mind and Hope are somehow tied to self worth, then.

I think most aspects are. It’s just that they tend to define self worth in mutually contradictory ways; for instance, Blood is far more concerned about your ability to fight or win arguments than Mind is, even though they share the same standpoint on “luck”/”magic”.

EDIT: aw shit. I didn’t mean to make this public. OH WELL.

Filed under Homestuck speculation blood aspect mind aspect hope aspect self-worth aspect as philosophy persona-q aspects

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persona-q asked: I don't entirely disagree. But Jake's really the worst example when you have two tunnel vision Amporas. Even then, they still do doubt themselves. Even if it does just lead to them doubling back into more tunnel vision.

My focus on Jake is really a consequence of the guy I’m talking to: his theories about the destroyer classes make it really hard for me to use Eridan and Cronus when “opposed” aspects like Hope and Rage are the main topic. (The gist of it is that a destroyer should naturally display tendencies towards the opposite aspect, which muddies the playing field.)

I think I will have to write a post about that sooner or later, but for now it’s sort of a diversion from the main issue at hand. For now, I’ll just ask what the difference between a Prince of Hope and a Prince of Rage is supposed to be if the two aspects mutually destroy each other.

About the self-doubt: hm. The Amporas did certainly end up doubting core beliefs of theirs, but I get the sense that the grounds for their doubt were themselves worthy of doubt. Eridan especially: he dropped Ahab’s Crosshairs (and all the ideals that it symbolized) in order to take up his science wwands and a new “belief” in the power of science. (It was at this point, around where he decided that he had to team up with Noir, that I think he started to move from Hope to Rage.)

Cronus we understand less about, but at the same time it’s made pretty clear that the cause for his disillusionment was actually a servant of the “evil wizard” he once prophesied— again, doubting his doubt would have led to the objective truth. Where Hope players are concerned, I think that their greatest challenge is to let go of assumptions completely, rather than replacing them with another set as soon as possible.

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persona-q asked: I've asked hiromalo this same question forever ago, but do you think glasses could represent Mind? (in spite of the obvious connection to light) Reading your conversation made me remember it.

I’d say yes. Tinted glasses and shades have the obvious relationship to filtering and altering perception; and wearing normal glasses can change how other people perceive you— people tend to assume that a person wearing glasses is clever, unless the glasses are those dumb hipster ones. (In which case the same principle is at play, just in the other direction.)

(Additionally, in a work of fiction a change in appearance generally accompanies a change in character. What about a Page of Mind who finally gets fed up with being called a nerd and acquires a “cooler” pair of glasses?)

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http://hiromalo.tumblr.com/post/78766033064/crisesofsanity-one-thing-that-i-never-got-about

hiromalo:

And it’s not like Heart/Mind is limited to emotion versus logic. It goes into the general inner/outer, impulse/decision, and (maybe through emotion as gauge of humanity) real/fake. In comparison to that, Hope/Rage as positive/negative emotion feels too constrictive? Maybe I’m just being unimaginative, but I don’t know where else to go with it.

Whoah, where did I say that the distinction between Hope and Rage was positive and negative emotion?

Hope, I think, maps more to ideals of rational thought than anything. In an old post of mine, I discussed the tendency of Hope players to try and make sense of everything around them. While this is by no means exclusive to Hope players, it makes an interesting contrast to Gamzee “MiRaClEs” Makara and his pal “Reason? What reason?” Kurloz.

It seems to me that Hope players are, to an extent, naturally logical. If you could freeze time and ask Jake English what the hell he was doing at any given moment, he’d be able to give you a straight answer— and if you asked him why, he’d be able to tell you again.

You: What the hell are you doing?
Jake: Killing adolescent fish hitler my good fellow. Care to give the old girl a thrashing of your own?
You: Uh… why?
Jake: So she doesnt grow up and kill dirks bro and roxys mom of course. Plus all the other horseshit she got up to. Werent you paying attention when dirk told me all about these shenanigans?

If we go one level deeper, and ask him why he thinks that he’s travelled back in time, we see the flaw in his logic.

Jake: Anyway its pretty obvious that ive travelled back in time in order to rectify all her grievous crimes against humanity.
You
: Is it actually obvious?
Jake: What?
You: The time travel thing. Weren’t you just talking to a ghost?
Jake: So i was!
You: So how come there are dead people ghosts in the past?
Jake: Come on its just like the movies! If you get your chance to undo hitlers crimes you take it no questions asked!
You: But where’s the time machine? What if this just fish Hitler’s clone???
Jake: Uh.

In terms of logic, Hope players struggle with one key thing: doubt. They rarely, if ever, go back and think, “Hang on… how do I know this?” (Or knoww this, as the case may be.) They take too much for granted: while deductions can be useful, if they’re based on flawed information they can be worse than useless.

As for Heart and Mind: well. I think that there’s a contrast that’s like impulse vs. decision there, only I would describe it more as a conflict between the idea that there is a “true you” that you have to act according to… and the idea that this “true you” is something you make with your words and deeds.

(This “true you” is what Plato called a soul. You can look it as an ideal, a sort of intangible guideline by which you can work out what you’re supposed to do.)

Again, I think that your approach to these two is backwards: instead of progressing to true souls from emotion, we should go from the idea of a soul— something that transcends human logic, and cannot be controlled— to emotions, which can be equally difficult to control. (Especially the emotion of love— in other words, what you feel for your soulmate.) Innately true knowledge, knowledge that you feel in your soul, is what I think Heart runs on.

As far as I can tell, Mind takes all this stuff and dismisses it as nonsense: truth, whatever it is, is inaccessible to us mere mortals. (Every single sense we possess filters information as it passes from the outside world to our minds, and if that wasn’t bad enough our minds themselves might even distort this filtered stimuli in the process of understanding it.)

(I think I’m going to have to write a Heart/Mind post now. :P)

Anyway, I’ll cut it off here: for now, have this little quote to tide you over.

GC: HOW MUCH OF YOUR R34L1TY DO YOU TH1NK 1S M4D3 OF WH4TS 1N YOUR M1ND? (x)

 

Filed under rage aspect hope aspect heart aspect mind aspect aspect as philosophy Homestuck speculation Aspect discussion aspects classpect hiromalo discussion reblogging