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Screw logic.

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The Tower (1/2)


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I wonder if the “destructive revelation” aspect of this card refers more to the stream of people turning against her because of her selfishness. Terezi was probably the most destructive one, but both John and Tavros have severed ties with her too, in their own ways.

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persona-q asked: Oh! If Mind and Hope have a great deal to do with Perception, does that mean that Heart and Rage have a connection to Judgement?

Judgement in the sort of regimental, judicial sense that the Myers-Briggs classification system uses? Definitely.

Heart has a deep connection with the Objective Truth in terms of both souls and ideals (which, upon closer inspection, were effectively the same thing to Plato anyway), and while Rage players have a very chaos-ridden view of the world around them they hold similar convictions about the futility of human choice.

Basically, there are rules written into you that you must follow. I guess they differ a little in that Heart-type rules can be resisted (at the cost of feeling awful about yourself), while you literally cannot help but follow Rage-type rules because they’re what everything about you is built out of.

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chimericodium asked: i'm a little stumped on the character arc of rogues. but since they're the inverse of mages, would you say it's something along the lines of learning to take care of oneself first to better help others/not try to please everyone?

Well: Mages learn this deeply spiritual lesson about how it’s harmful or impossible to have your cake and eat it too. Taking into account the connotations of dishonesty and avoidance that the word ‘steal’ holds, it seems to me that Rogues need to grow out of this borderline asceticism and just go out there and take stuff, whether or not they’ll be able to keep it.

A Rogue’s arc, I think, is mainly about

a) realizing that other people can be enormously greedy/egotistical/deceptive/a whole host of other historically ‘villainous’ traits, and

b) learning that these things don’t always have to lead to bad results.

I get the sense that both of your suggestions tie into this layout in a big way, especially where the notion that “people can be huge flaming jerks sometimes” comes in. Being a Rogue is all about tricking “bad” things into becoming “good” ones, even if it’s only to a limited extent.

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speaking of things that annoy me and theorizing

why does like nobody talk about the fact that brain ghost dirk exists when they are talking about page abilities

like okay for whatever reason knight/seer is still considered a viable pairing in the classpect…

Brain Ghost Dirk always struck me as a way to clue us into the mechanisms behind Hope— his little spiel about Jake’s “thought patterns” and “projections” seems to dip into the solipsistic mindset that I think all Hope players live by, and was part of what sold the Hope/reason association to me in the first place.

That said, if we take BGD’s actions towards Jake (chiefly feeding him a well-meaning but kind of condescending stream of information) and compare them to the dynamic between the three Pages and the characters around them, we get a repeated pattern of people giving tough love to Pages. (Or, well, attempts at tough love. [Vriska, we’re looking at you >:|]) Oh, plus sometimes they skip out on the “love” part entirely: check out John’s attitude towards Tavros when they meet face-to-face for the first time or Crockercorp Jane’s, uh, “plans” for Jake when he was still her captive.

Most -Knight/+Seer theorists tend to pair -Mage/+Page, but I’m not sure how well that connects with the behaviour outlined above. If -Mage/+Page were the case, I’d expect Mages to do to everyone what everyone does to Pages; they’d take a sort of drill-sergeant, “I’m going to kick your ass for your own good” attitude, keeping any fears or problems they may have well-hidden. Instead, we have Sollux’s half-hearted attempt to stop Karkat from being a raging dumbass, and his later decision “you know what I give up on trying to explain any of this shit”.

-Maid/+Page is interesting when considered from this perspective, but besides Jane’s little “stupid stupid stupid” moment there’s not a lot of self-directed asskicking going on with Maids. Meanwhile, the arcs of both Dave and Karkat feature plenty of concerted self-deprecation, and Knights in general match at least as many of the other indicators as Maids do. If we think of self-[verb]ing as a sign that a given class is the active [verb]er class*, then it’s an open-and-shut case.

* Princes, in addition to destroying shit outside of them, tend to act incredibly self-destructively: Dirk committed sendificator-assisted suicide, and Kurloz chewed his own tongue out. On the Thief front, we have Meenah stealing her own life to cheat the Scratch and Vriska constantly robbing herself of any absolution or exoneration in the eyes of her friends.

(Source: )

Filed under homestuck hope aspect reblogging kanjisassrenovationservice that url is truly a joy to type out page class passive classes active and passive classes? active classes Homestuck speculation -knight/+seer -mage/+page -knight/+page -mage/+heir comparing pairings ... compairing?

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But if I’m getting this correctly, your definition of Hope encompasses both Faith and Reason as means of explaining the world around you.

Basically, yes. Most people find it incredibly difficult to believe in something unless they have a reason that they think is logical: the disconnect between (for example) atheists and Christians is how much sense the Bible makes to them.

In contrast, animals rely almost exclusively on instincts; they don’t seek to explain or question or find reasons for the rules. They just follow them, or else they’ll die a painful death.

Rage (instead of my assumed “negative emotion”) is emotion and impulse in as much as it doesn’t try to explain. Or rather that Hope indicates conviction while Rage in a roundabout way includes all doubt? Ah, I’m still unsure if I’m on the same page as you…

In my view, the conviction that Rage players experience is basically the same as the animal instinct thing I mentioned above. Where Hope players study the outside world and invent their own “religion”, Rage players search within themselves and discover the “religion” hinted at by their impulses and emotions.

I think both paths have certain obstacles that can mislead players who aren’t well-versed in Doubt. Hope players, like everyone else on Earth, have imperfect senses, leading to flaws in the explanations that they base on these senses; and Rage players are prevented from reaching the truth within every part of reality by the illusion that is their ego (used in the Freudian sense). Hope players doubt their body, Rage players doubt their mind.

But I still think Mind bleeds heavily into the field of choice; Terezi’s entire ordeal with Vriska displayed her ability to see the diverging results of her decision on whether to kill. Or Dave’s decision to call Heads or Tails. The coin-flip is always arbitrary, and all she ever really cares about is the associated choice.

I don’t disagree! If we believe (for whatever reason) that the objective Truth is unknowable, or perhaps nonexistent, then the truth that matters is that which we choose to use. Instead of judging people’s actions based on how close they are to the Truth in their souls, we have to examine their decisions and all their reasoning, and decide whether or not they’re justified based on 

a) What they wanted to accomplish

and to a lesser extent

b) What they knew about the situation at the time
c) What they did to expand this knowledge

Heart, as an aspect, leaves very little room, or necessity, for personal choice. Any given situation can be dealt with in (effectively) two ways: the one that matches your soul, and the one that doesn’t. You can “be yourself”, or you can… not. In this respect, morality for Heart players is relatively simple, if inflexible, although there is the question of discovering your true self in the first place.

So maybe the difference is that while Heart and Rage both (in some ways) can include impulse as a feeling or an instinct, Hope shares Heart’s association with truth while both Mind and Rage are false?

I wouldn’t say that Mind and Rage are “false”— rather, they view truth as something that is made or enforced rather than simply the Unchanging Objective Truth. Meanwhile, Heart and Rage see morality as a set of rules that are dictated to us (the concept that underlies following your impulses/instincts, or your “heart”), where Mind and Hope believe very firmly that we make the rules.

(Source: crisesofsanity)

Filed under rage aspect hope aspect mind aspect heart aspect hiromalo kinda late: whoops discussion aspect talk homestuck Homestuck speculation

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iceworks asked: Well, I didn't mean that she wouldn't use them for an actual revival. She could do that before she died, couldn't she? But if she was alive at the end then either something about her powers wouldn't work or no one would stay dead. Unless I'm forgetting something?


Who exactly are you suggesting would be dead at the end, corpse present, who shouldn’t be revived?

If the aftermath of Horrorstuck made anything clear, it’s that fewer individuals than you might think are set to permanently die. (Besides the least relevant trolls.) Dave is one of the few people I have nigh-absolutely confirmed as set to die, and if he’s wiped out by a scratch, there’d be no corpse to resurrect.

Iceworks is forgetting that Jane’s powers can only be used once per person. So if Karkat dies a second time, Jane can’t resurrect him.

Filed under homestuck jane crocker maid of life

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persona-q asked: Okay, I think I get it. Before I leave you alone to write the post (sorry), I do want to point out the fact that it looks like both Mind and Hope are somehow tied to self worth, then.

I think most aspects are. It’s just that they tend to define self worth in mutually contradictory ways; for instance, Blood is far more concerned about your ability to fight or win arguments than Mind is, even though they share the same standpoint on “luck”/”magic”.

EDIT: aw shit. I didn’t mean to make this public. OH WELL.

Filed under Homestuck speculation blood aspect mind aspect hope aspect self-worth aspect as philosophy persona-q aspects